No matter how long you've been interviewing bands, there are a few artists who'll intimidate you. Often they're your favorite musicians -- men and women who, despite being thoroughly friendly, approachable and down-to-earth, are utterly terrifying as interview prospects...due largely to the weight of your own expectations.

I mention this not to make myself part of the story, but to explain the background behind this interview. As perhaps the most visible member of legendary New Zealand popsters The Clean, he's a bona fide indie rock legend, albeit -- and I'm sure he'd agree with me -- a fairly obscure one. Both with The Clean and as a solo artist, he's been responsible for some incredibly simple, incredibly catchy, incredibly influential music. Though The Clean's output, viewed in the context of their twenty year history, has come at a glacial pace, the band has long been one of the pillars of the indie-rock canon, their jangly, loosely-knit pop songs both accessible and archetypal.

I had the opportunity to spend a few minutes with Kilgour when he came through Chicago last month, supporting Lambchop on their national tour. Despite being an indie/Kiwi rock icon, Kilgour is just an average guy -- unpretentious, likable, plain-spoken and approachable. It was only my nerves -- hey, I was talking to someone from my Top Five People I'd Most Like to Interview list -- that made our conversation a bit tentative, at first. At one point, I even stopped the recorder, too self-conscious to continue. Fortunately, Kilgour is a patient man (he'd have to be; he's in a band that recorded four albums in twenty years), and our conversation -- after a bit of editorial polish -- turned out to be interesting stuff. Enjoy.

Splendid: This seems to have been a busy year for you.

David Kilgour: It has.

Splendid: What inspired all that activity?

David Kilgour: Well, I'm always working on music, and it was just a coincidence, really, because the Clean just happened to put out that LP last year. I'm always working on the solo stuff -- the solo LP (Feather in the Engine) has actually been in the can, ready to go, for about a year. It's just coincidence -- and connecting up with Merge (his US label) had to do with it. I toured with (Superchunk frontman and Merge head) Mac McCaughan and Yo La Tengo two years ago, and just that connection with Merge... Mac liked the demos...It's the Merge connection that has made me busy in America.

Splendid: As much as I'd like to, I can't keep up with everything that's coming out in New Zealand. Have you had a steady stream of releases that haven't seen the light of day over here?

David Kilgour: No. This is the first solo LP in four to five years --

Splendid: Is that number four for you?

David Kilgour: Yes. Pretty much. Technically speaking it's five, but it is four.

Splendid: If you're working on music all the time, how do you decide what goes on a Clean record, or what goes on a solo record?

David Kilgour: Well, with the Clean, we don't take anything in -- we don't take any completed music or riffs into the rehearsal space.

Splendid: Right, I forgot about that.

David Kilgour: When we get together, we start with a clean slate, so to speak --

Splendid: -- and just improvise your way into songs.

David Kilgour: Right. And that's how we try and keep it. We try to keep it that way. If we started going in with individual songs, we might as well make solo LPs, which we kind of do anyway. And that's the fear of getting back together with the Clean -- will it still be organic? Will it still come from us being together? And for sure, there are some songs that are obviously a Bob (Scott), or a Hamish (Kilgour), or one of my songs, because we sing them, but the whole thing is a collaboration.

Splendid: Is it easier these days to get into the swing of collaborating that way?

David Kilgour: Pretty much. The only trouble is that we always give ourselves a really short period to do it in, so that's difficult. But it's still pretty easy. I think that in some ways we work well under stress.

Splendid: That makes sense. It's surprising, though, because having listened to Getaway something like a hundred times, if I didn't know that your process worked that way, it would be hard to believe. At least as far as my tastes are concerned, it's a lot more polished than a lot of bands are after months of writing and rehearsing. Is it just that your rapport is so strong after all these years?

David Kilgour: I think so. We work pretty hard, as well. When we're on the case, we're at it all the time. And we definitely put pressure on ourselves. We want to make a good record! With Getaway, we actually did shelve it for a week; we thought, "We can't finish it. It's a piece of crap." But that was basically because we were at the end of a long tour and we were pretty tired. After a week, we realized that maybe we could resurrect it. I mean, it was seriously canned -- we rang Merge and said, "Look, we're not doing it -- we're sending back the money that you sent us." But a week later we came to our senses and finished it. We wrote a couple more songs...

Splendid: So what happened at the last minute? Which songs were the late bloomers?

David Kilgour: "Golden Crown" was one; I sat down for a week trying to write a song, and got "Golden Crown" out of it. That weird experimental track, that's like the second-to-last track ("Reprise 1#, 2*, 3*, 8, 4"), that was recorded when we were mastering. We were just playing around with that to see if it'd be any good, and we ended up liking it. What else was fresh? I think a couple of instrumentals might have been. I don't think we wrote any songs at the end, apart from "Golden Crown".

Splendid: Now, as far as Feather in the Engine is concerned, how long did it take you to work those songs up?

David Kilgour: Some of them are very old. One song predates the last solo LP. The first track, obviously, is September '98, and some of it was written on the spot as we were mastering it, so it's a mixed bag of old and new. But I pretty much recorded it all at my home studio. It's a collection of songs from the last five years, really.

Splendid: This tour must be an interesting logistical situation for you, being on the road with Lambchop. Obviously, anyone you need to play any instrument at all is within easy reach. How has it been working out for you?

David Kilgour: Fantastic.

Splendid: Are you doing just songs from Feather in the Engine?

David Kilgour: It's a mixed bag. Some nights I do a couple of Clean songs...

Splendid: Which I'm sure the audience appreciates.

David Kilgour: I do some really old solo stuff... I do quite a bit. Every night's a bit different, but I've been doing a decent amount of stuff from the new LP.

Splendid: Just the songs, or the instrumentals?

David Kilgour: Well, I'm really only doing the songs off it. I have done some of the instrumentally weird, sort of psychedelic-y things live, but I haven't been doing those on this tour. I'm mainly doing the pop songs off the LP, I guess, and one of the instrumentals.

Splendid: It's an interesting mix of songs...

David Kilgour: It's kind of eclectic, I agree. Kind of odd.

Splendid: How did you decide the order of the songs, what you wanted to keep, what you didn't...

David Kilgour: I pretty much did it at the last minute. I got to a point where I was pretty certain that I had an LP -- it maybe needed a couple of additional things, which I came up with just as we were mastering it, but I pretty much put it together while we were mastering it.

Splendid: If you were ever placed in a position where you'd have to do a thoroughly planned-out thing -- where you'd decide everything months in advance, with all the songs scored and all the lyrics written -- would that just be impossible for you?

David Kilgour: No, I've done that. Here Come the Cars, Sugarmouth to at least a degree, the Heavy Eights LP -- they were all reasonably planned out. I always leave a lot to spontaneity, but the songs are pretty much there. I always try to write something on the spot, just jamming in the studio, but the last three records have been reasonably well planned out.

Splendid: Moving on to a question that you've probably been asked a million times... You've been honored by the Queen, with -- was it the New Zealand Order of Merit?

David Kilgour: The New Zealand Order of Merit. In the old way we used to do it in New Zealand, we used to have OBEs (Order of the British Empire) and knighthoods -- we don't have that any more, we have this other system. But I think it's equivalent to an OBE.

Splendid: Damn, that's impressive.

David Kilgour: Yeah, it was cool.

Splendid: How does that happen? Does that mean the Queen has actually heard your records, and has them stashed away somewhere, or do they just hand her a list of names who are likely candidates?

David Kilgour: I think you're nominated... and I think the people who nominate you are people who've received it in the past. You get nominated, and you never find out who nominated you, but it's someone who has had a similar award. I had no idea.

Splendid: When did you find out? Did they tell you when you were nominated, or when you received it?

David Kilgour: They ask you first if you want it. If you want to accept it. And to be honest, I didn't really want to; I was kind of bemused by it, really. But I realized that my mother would have skinned me alive if I hadn't accepted it, so I accepted it. And a few months later you go and do it -- you have a ceremony in New Zealand for it.

Splendid: Has it changed the way the mainstream culture looks at you or your music?

David Kilgour: No, not really. Well, maybe a little, but not really. Maybe it just adds to the media thing, the "Legendary" David Kilgour thing -- I get that. But I'm not a mainstream act in New Zealand at all.

Splendid: Now, you were here in the US six months ago with the Clean, weren't you? You were here at a really bad time, if I recall -- like you got into town on September 9th or so.

David Kilgour: That (September 11th) was our first morning in America.

Splendid: And you played a couple of days later.

David Kilgour: I think we played about four days later. Four or five days later.

Splendid: That must have been a strange experience, to say the least.

David Kilgour: It was. The whole thing was mind-blowing. We were only about ten blocks from it.

Splendid: Were there people at the show?

David Kilgour: There were. It was probably half the crowd, and some of the acts didn't make it because of the disaster -- it was a big Merge night, with a lot of Merge acts -- but it was a great show. It was a nice vibe, and we played really well.

Splendid: I didn't really pay much attention to that tour -- not just because of the other things that were going on, but because I was so disappointed that you weren't coming to Chicago.

David Kilgour: Yeah, we played a bunch of other shows...but we didn't get to Chicago. It was just the way it worked out. We were pissed that we didn't make it here.

Splendid: So is there any chance that you'll be back through here again soon?

David Kilgour: Well, we might try to make another LP next month.

Splendid: Wow!

David Kilgour: But you never know. We'll try. If it's good enough, we might put it out.

Splendid: That gets me wondering -- is there a vast stockpile of Clean material somewhere that didn't make the cut?

David Kilgour: Not really. We've been looking at that recently because we're gonna do a new anthology. I've been digging around trying to find stuff. There's a lot of live stuff; we're gonna release a live LP later this year, hopefully, because we have some really good live stuff. But as far as unreleased studio gems, not really. We've pretty much mined it, I think.

(The recording cuts out for a minute. When it resumes, we're just finishing a discussion of Kilgour's fellow New Zealanders, the marvelous Suka.)

Splendid: When you record, is it all still completely analog stuff?

David Kilgour: Well, on the last one, it was a bit of both. It was the same with the Clean LP -- it was a bit of both, but mainly analog.

Splendid: Just a matter of personal taste?

David Kilgour: Two of the tracks on the new LP were done straight to computer. I don't really have a problem with it. But if there's a tape machine around, I'd prefer to use a tape machine -- there's a certain warmth there. I mean, it's difficult to describe.

Splendid: I know what you mean -- I've listened to a lot of digitally-produced stuff, and if you've heard a lot, you can tell whether it's digital or analog. That hard edge is there, that tape doesn't have.

David Kilgour: And you can distort tape to a point where it's lovely. As far as I know, digital production can't do that yet.

Splendid: And the quality of analog four-track production is entirely in the hands of the user. It can be amazing.

David Kilgour: Yeah. If the music's good, too, it helps.

Splendid: Needless to say. But if you know what you're doing, your four-track record can sound like it was made in a million-dollar studio.

David Kilgour: I agree totally.

Splendid: And clearly you know what you're doing. What do you use now?

David Kilgour: Fifth Street Studios in Dunedin and Robert Scott and I went thirds on Bailterspace's old 24-track two-inch. I've had that in the house for the last few years. And I got a grant from the government about two years ago, and with that grant I bought a mixing desk. Anything else I need I just borrow from friends. I've got a cool studio.

Splendid: I don't know what else you do -- are you a hundred percent a full-time musician, or do you have to do other work?

David Kilgour: Pretty much, pretty much. I only just scrape a living out of music, and every year I think "This is the year I'll have to get a real job," but I'm hanging in there.

Splendid: Do you produce stuff for other bands at all?

David Kilgour: No. I'd like to! But I've only just taught myself to be an engineer, and got my head 'round that whole thing. I'd like to, sure. I have helped people in the studio before, sure, but I wouldn't say I've ever engineered or produced a record for someone. Just bits and pieces.

Splendid: Why -- other than Martin Phillipps' (of the Chills) health problems -- has there never been a big team-up between you and him? Or has there been, and I was too wrapped up in myself to notice?

David Kilgour: We started an LP two years ago -- started writing it -- and we ended up shelving it for a variety of reasons. Martin got sick, for starters. Martin's keen on us trying to finish it, so we might scrape something out of it. We wanted to make an LP, and I think Martin thinks we still can, but if we do commit to making another one, I'd like to do more work on it.

Splendid: Is it difficult for you to return to projects when you've put them aside for so long?

David Kilgour: It can be. I've never had a gap like that before, of two or three years, but it could be.

Splendid: So when you have songs on Feather in the Engine that are five years old, where do you pick them up? Were they recorded five years ago, and you just mastered them?

David Kilgour: Yeah. That was the one thing about Feather in the Engine stuff -- all of it was recorded as soon as I wrote it. I just walked in there and recorded it. Sometimes it'd just be an idea on tape, and I'd flesh it out and make a song based on that idea. I guess that's the nice thing about some of the older tracks -- I still like them. I've lived with quite a few of these songs for a long time, which can be good and bad, but in this case it's quite good because for me, they're strong songs.

Splendid: How often do you listen to your own stuff?

David Kilgour: Not very often at all. If I've just made an LP... Like, at first I listened to Feather in the Engine quite a bit, but now I don't listen to it at all. Only if I have to learn a song or something.

Splendid: How many of your songs do you know at any given time?

David Kilgour: That's a good question. Probably not a hell of a lot. There's one we're doing tonight that I'm still trying to remember how to play. Some of them are pretty old. I could probably recall most of them if I had to.

Splendid: I've always wondered about that, especially for people who've amassed such a huge catalog of material. Like (Guided By Voices') Robert Pollard -- he's written such a huge volume of songs that he must forget two or three albums' worth of material every year, and that's why he has to keep writing more.

David Kilgour: I think he's just prolific and can't help himself.

Splendid: So if you were placed on the spot, you could eventually come up with all of your songs? Or most of them?

David Kilgour: (after a lengthy pause) Yeah. Maybe.

Splendid: What are the easiest to remember?

David Kilgour: Most are pretty easy. A lot of them are just one chord. Many of them are just three chords. The one we were doing at sound check is a pretty complicated arrangement. Most of them are really simple; I think remembering lyrics is hard.

Splendid: If writing songs is simple --

David Kilgour: It's not simple. It's very hard. I find writing music to be incredibly difficult. It's hard, hard work.

Splendid: The thing about good pop acts, though -- and Clean songs, definitely -- is that they're the sort of songs that make you wonder why you didn't think of them yourself. Well, not you, probably, because you did think of them, but you understand what I'm saying. Hopefully. Is it hard to tap into that...whatever it is?

David Kilgour: It is. That's what I try to do -- tap into the ether, or whatever it is.

Splendid: The collective melodic unconscious.

David Kilgour: Yeah. It's really easy to sit down with three chords and sing a song. I could do that all day. I could write a zillion songs, all day, and they'd all possibly be crap. It's finding inspiration... That's why it's been nice to have the studio, because I'll be able to lay all the music down and get a really lovely-sounding piece of music, and then it's like, "Now let's get a vocal." And I get myself into that certain state where I just turn the music up really loud and just spontaneously come up with anything -- nothing written down, no ideas. A lot of the LPs don't even have written-down lyrics. It's kind of hit-and-miss, but sometimes it works.

Splendid: So lyrics for you are more just a matter of --

David Kilgour: I have difficulty with lyrics. I'm super-critical. I'm always editing myself, just generally, creatively. I'm always canning stuff. If I can't come up with anything, I just won't say anything. I'll keep it simple.

Splendid: Do the lyrics change after they're written down?

David Kilgour: Generally. Sometimes I'll look back and it's like hearing yourself sitting on a psychiatrist's table. Like, "Wow! Where was my head at when I made that LP?" They make more sense later, yeah. Or a piece of nonsense at the time will make sense...

Splendid: It's that whole psychoanalysis through free association thing.

David Kilgour: Yeah. It's interesting.

Splendid: A question I ask a lot of really creative people: do you ever just get an idea for a song in the middle of doing something else, and have to stop what you're doing, get a guitar and sit down and record it?

David Kilgour: If I can, I might do that -- but I try to remember it and write it down. It's all discipline.

Splendid: So do you ever find yourself with five or six songs in your head that are almost out, onto paper or tape, but they're just not quite there?

David Kilgour: No. There might be a couple floating around in my head, or I might have a cool progression that'll float 'round for months and months and months, and then one day it'll just happen. But no, I don't walk around with lots of songs in my head. I come up with ideas all the time, but I don't withhold them.

Splendid: Do you write them down, or does the whole "not-doing-anything-in-advance" aesthetic apply?

David Kilgour: Well, I might get a lyric in my head, and write it down, or I might get a melody in my head and then try to grab the tape machine...

Splendid: So do you have a box of these somewhere, or a drawer full of napkins with lyrics on them?

David Kilgour: I've got just boxes of lyrics and stuff. I've kept everything. Boxes of crap. I'm a paper collector. I keep everything.

Splendid: So when you have a song that needs lyrics, do you go straight to those?

David Kilgour: Oh, yeah. I'll do anything to come up with a melody or a lyric.

Splendid: How often do you find the answer in those boxes?

David Kilgour: Less and less. I'm going more with new stuff. I had a good bit of advice years ago: I was having trouble writing lyrics, and someone said, "Well, just write about what's going on around you." And that's all very well, and that's what I've been trying to do, but I'm a little bit tired of singing about me and my psyche. I find it hard to be objective, I guess. It's kind of nice to do it from the heart. But I do get tired of getting up on stage and singing my heart out to people. Who do I think I am? It's an unusual occupation, anyway, to get up in front of an audience and sing your heart out and bare your thoughts to these people. Who am I to burden these lovely people with my odd psyche?

Splendid: At the same time, is it a little disturbing when those people to whom you've chosen to bare your heart or burden with your odd psyche, or however you choose to look at it --

David Kilgour: That's only sometimes, that I might feel that way.

Splendid: -- is it annoying, then, when they don't seem to be entirely engrossed in it?

David Kilgour: No, that doesn't really bother me any more. I'm just up here to do a job, and I get up and do it the best I can. If it misses, that's fine.

Splendid: So you're working on a Clean live record, there's another Clean studio record in the pipeline -- could there possibly be more things on your to do list?

David Kilgour: Well, I'm gonna try to turn around the next solo LP really quickly. I've said that before, but I'd love to have it completed by the end of the year. I've got a few things floating around that could go on the LP.

Splendid: If you had the material to do it, how often would you put out records?

David Kilgour: If I had the material...I don't know, maybe once every eighteen months. Once a year, tops.

Splendid: So that whole eighteen month "product cycle" or whatever, do you see some sense in it? Or is that just as often as you want to be bothered with it?

David Kilgour: Well, I think it would keep me busy, and it'd keep the cash flow going. If I have a great gap, the money kind of dries up. But if the material was there, I'd do it.