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article by phillip buchan.
Everyone needs an album or two that they can put on and flip the proverbial middle finger to society with. Whether you're 16 or 36, you're going to have days where you get fed up with the world around you and its insipid, illogical codes of conduct, which often place conformity and appearance ahead of treating yourself and your fellow man with the requisite amount of decency and respect. When you feel like you're about to hit your boiling point -- when your parents refuse to talk to you after you decide to switch your major from pre-med to philosophy, when you seek to dissociate yourself from all forms of art and criticism because you realize that most people traveling in those circles are little more than self-satisfied, pretentious pricks, or when your boss chews you out for sporting your weekend stubble for the twelfth consecutive Monday morning -- you need a record you can pop in and scream along to. Shai Hulud makes those kinds of albums, lacing their lyrics with a Swiftian disdain for man's natural proclivity toward depravity, and giving their self-proclaimed "writ of misanthropy" the perfect backing -- moody, headbanging, pendulous metallic hardcore. Sure, this style has been done to death for the last twelve years or so, but few bands have captured metal's technicality and expressive guitar-work without losing hardcore's never-say-die, rally-the-crowd-and-belt-out-a-thrilling-chorus charisma like these guys. That's they were able to remain one of the most respected names in all of hardcore, despite a six year delay between full-lengths.
Granted, punk rock has been growing into an entirely different animal since day one -- see the various directions that Joy Division, Fugazi, Drive Like Jehu and The Locust have taken the style's fundamental aesthetics -- so maybe a band like Shai Hulud, who could arguably be labeled as an unprogressive bunch of throwbacks, should seem a little quaint. And there's an emphasis on should for a reason: Shai Hulud's most recent effort, That Within Blood Ill-Tempered, defies everything it ought to be. With a sound that's a little chuggier and yet a little more melodically rocking, than their past works, the band has moved forward in songwriting without extinguishing their hardcore torch, and they bear that torch with a degree of raw energy that hasn't been seen on a punk record since Relationship of Command. Even if you feel like you've outgrown loud, angry rock, Shai Hulud's fresh hooks and intellectual approach might change your mind.
I met up with guitarist/lyricist/last original member standing Matt Fox at Furnace Fest to discuss a litany of subjects, from having an immigrant as a lead singer to table manners, and from spirituality to the sense of hope that underlies his band's righteous indignation. This is what ensued.
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Splendid: Let's start with the new album. You took seven years between albums, so I'm wondering what the big delay was. What was the hold-up?
Matt Fox: A lot of people think that it was us, you know, laboring over every note, making sure everything was perfect, and there was some of that, but that's not what the delay was. The main delay was, we pretty much lost our band. I'm the only original member. In 1999, our singer -- it was Chad Gilbert at the time -- went into New Found Glory, and we parted ways with our drummer, parted ways with our bass player, so we had to rebuild the band. And at that time, it was just a difficult time, and all the while we were writing the album. And also, at the same time, we found our new singer and we had to get him legal, which took us about two years to do. We had to find drummers; we went through about three or four drummers. It's so hard to find someone that's good, dedicated, and a cool guy. We played shows, we recorded a split EP, we recorded three or four covers, so we were constantly busy doing things to perpetuate our band, to remind everyone, "Hi! We're still here, and the new album's coming out some time eventually." That's pretty much it. In a nutshell, we just took all the necessary steps to perpetuate the band, to get us to the point where we could finally record the new album, and we really regret having waited so long. So much happened, so much changed, and we know we would have been in a much better position had we released it earlier, but we just weren't dealt those cards. We were dealt a bad hand, you know, where you get an ace, a two, a six, a queen, and just like in poker, if you have an ace, you can get rid of everything else. I'm not saying that I'm an ace, but I was the only original member. We had to rebuild, and that's what took so long -- we just rebuilt.
Splendid: But you were still able to find people who were interested in keeping that same sound.
Matt Fox: Yeah, that was the cool thing -- that the band had made, I guess, an impact with the first album, the first few releases, on a few people, so that was cool. So the people that were interested in joining the band were interested in joining the band and continuing that sound. The best thing that happened was that the guy who's been with me since 1999 -- Matt Fletcher, the bass player -- has such an awesome writing ability, so when he came in to join... Now, none of us are great players, but when he came in to join, I was like, yeah, he's okay. He's not the best player in the world, but then he showed me some of the stuff he was writing and I said, "Wow, that's cool, that's fantastic, I wish I wrote that," and that's why he came in the band. Everyone else that came in the band -- drummers, singers, anyone -- said, "you know, the lyrics that you wrote, that's what I want to do," and I'm like, that's great, that's what I do. And it all came together, and we really lucked out. We're almost a solid band again.
Splendid: Cool. Now you say it took you two years to get your singer legal. Where is he from?
Matt Fox: It took a long time; whether it was two years or not, I'm not sure. He's from Holland and we met him on tour in 1999 and he came on tour with us, had a great voice. We met him on the tour. We went over to Europe without a singer. Chad, our singer, left a week or two before we had to go, and we went over with Matt Fletcher, actually, singing, and he just doesn't have the best voice in the world -- great for back-ups, but not for lead, plus we needed him on guitar. So we didn't have a real singer, and we only had one guitar player. We met (current vocalist) Geert and we were his favorite band. He asked, "Can I come on tour with you?" and I was like, sure, you can even try singing. He's like, "no, no," and I was like ahh, what the hell. He got up there, he had a great voice... We asked him to come back with us, and when he came back with us, we found out he could only stay in the US three months at a time. The only way to get him legal was to get him an entertainer's visa, and that took a lot of time, a lot of things to compile, and legal fees and all this garbage, and we finally got him his entertainer's visa, which permits him to stay here a couple years at a time.
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Splendid: So he's going to have to get that renewed coming up in a year or two?
Matt Fox: Yeah, he's going to have to renew it soon. I think at this point all it does is cost money, which sucks, but at least it's easier than going through the big hassle we had to. Before, we weren't sure he was going to be approved. At one point we thought that he might not be approved, and we were like, "what are we going to do then?" But now, I think he's solid; we just have to keep paying.
Splendid: As for touring in Europe, are y'all going back there anytime soon?
Matt Fox: Well, we just went over for one day. Actually, we went over for four days. We played one show in Belgium for the Good Life Records summer fest and that was great. Everyone was really receptive because we haven't been there since 1999, and everyone seems to want us to come back, and we're looking into tentatively going in November. I don't know if our schedule here is going to permit it or our members' lives are going to permit it, but that's what we're hoping for, so we may go back to Europe in November.
Splendid: What kind of differences do you see with shows, the scene, all that over there as compared to here?
Matt Fox: There's definitely differences, and there's a lot of similarities too. One difference is here, like today -- and I have to admit, I like this -- we open a chord and the whole place starts moving. In Europe -- and we haven't been to Europe in a while -- we open up with a chord and the kids are just standing there. I was like, "oh man" -- I wanted the energy to start circulating... but it didn't. And that's not a bad thing, it's just how they do it over there, which is actually a lot safer for people.
Splendid: Yeah, true.
Matt Fox: But the other differences, uhh, I can't really think of anything. At least in Belgium, everyone, most everyone, speaks fairly good English -- is that good English? (laughs) Maybe I'm the one that needs the help. (at this point, others around us begin to question Matt's grammar, and I reassure him that he did no wrong as far as I could tell) Anyway -- everyone spoke very well, and for the most part the people like the same music. The main difference is there's definitely a strong, as silly as this sounds, European influence on European hardcore; there's also an American influence on European hardcore, but you don't see Europe's presence in the hardcore scene as much here. There are really a lot of awesome European hardcore bands that for some reason just don't get the credit they deserve over here. Other than that, I can't think of many differences off the top of my head. Everyone's polite and great.
Splendid: Cool.
Matt Fox: You know what I think? I think hardcore's pretty universal. I think it's a similar mentality, and I'm sure from Idaho to Florida there's a little bit of difference, but it's still under the blanket of hardcore and I think that attitude kind of perpetuates through the entire scene, worldwide.
AUDIO: Set Your Body Ablaze
Splendid: Speaking of hardcore, I know with your new album it's almost a renewal of a lot of things hardcore's supposed to be about. It starts out, "rest assured, this is sincere", so I guess you guys have kind of put yourselves up there as the alternative to a lot of other bands -- not naming any names -- that might not have been quite as, erm, true or sincere. So what do you think of the scene today, positives and negatives?
Matt Fox: Umm... positives. (light chuckling ensues on both parts, then someone detains Matt for a few moments to show him a picture of himself at a recent show) Positive things... we barely knew the guys in Rise Against, we barely knew the guys in Avenged Sevenfold, and we're on tour with them now, and we meet them and they treat us like they've known us for 45 years, and that's definitely a positive scene thing. Sometimes, from people reading our CDs or our website, they know us, and it's just like, "hey Matt, how's it going", and I just like how it's all personable. There's not much rockstar attitude... sometimes there is, but not with us, anyway. Overall, I just like how it's really cool. When we were looking for a drummer, one guy flew out from Texas to try out for us and pulled up in a truck that our bass player was driving at the time, and as soon as he got out of the truck, we both had these big smiles on our faces. Never met the guy before, he had never met me before, and I remember saying to myself, as cheesy as this may sound, "that's what I like about hardcore." I don't even know this guy's last name and I already feel like I've got a friend and I already know we have common interests. So that's one thing that I've already like about it.
Splendid: Cool.
Matt Fox: Also, another positive thing -- I like the energy. One of the best feelings in the world, aside from falling in love, and maybe vanilla ice cream, is getting up there, playing a show, and not having to play to spectators, but playing to interactors, people that are jumping up on stage. I like it when people jump on stage and grab me by the face and they scream in my ear. I love that; I don't have a problem with that at all, and I like that kind of visceral interaction. And I don't think you -- well, maybe a little bit in other scenes, but I really don't think you find it as prevalent as you do in what's known as "the hardcore scene", and that's probably my main attraction to it.
Negative things... there's definitely -- and this is with anything, this is not, you know, just a trait of hardcore -- there's the "cool cliques", and there's nothing worse than being a band or a person outside the cool cliques. Shai Hulud -- and I make this statement clearly -- Shai Hulud, since day one, has always been outside the cool clique. Never been invited in. You won't see the "cool bands" wearing Shai Hulud shirts. You'll see them wearing all of (their bands' shirts). You'll see kids at the cool bands' shows wearing Shai Hulud shirts, but you'll never see cool bands wearing Shai Hulud shirts. We've never been cool. For a long time it hurt, it upset me, I wanted to be in. Not that I wanted to be in the cool crowd, but you know, hey, we're a band, we play good music too. It hasn't happened; I don't care anymore. Whatever it is, personality, attitude, music, bad sense of fashion on our part, whatever the case may be, we are definitely not in the cool scene, and it's definitely irritating. I'm not going to lie -- it's definitely irritating, but at the same time, we are no longer interested in joining. We've done fairly well for ourselves operating outside of the, umm, main division, and that's where we'll happily stay.
So that's a frustrating thing for any band. Even friends' bands will tell me, "We just can't seem to break into that market. We can get on a tour with these guys and these guys and you'll take us out, but how come these guys don't return our calls?" They don't return our calls either. There's definitely a big trend and cool clique factor that's, like I said, somewhat irritating. Then again, you've also got your rockstar attitude, and you know, every band is concerned about selling records... You know, you start a band for fun, and if you take it to a certain level, it becomes some semblance of a business. Some bands I know just take it to a degree where, to me, it doesn't seem about music at all anymore. I've heard bands say this to me, and you know, I just think it's silly when people get so concerned. Not that I'm not concerned -- I'm not trying to say that I'm different, but there's a level, umm...
Splendid: Of how much you're concerned.
Matt Fox: When Revelation Records calls us up and says, "You want to know how much we sold this week?" I honestly say, "You know what, don't tell me" -- I don't want to know. I'm like, "Is it doing okay?" (and they say) "It's doing very well." "Cool. Don't give me a number, I don't need to know." Sometimes I think that bands, especially coming in this scene, with what this scene is supposed to perpetuate, sometimes I think the attitudes are, erm, maybe a little out of focus. You know, I could talk about positive and negative things all day, but let's just leave it at that.
And one last thing, to sum up, I'm not big into fashion, I'm not big into trends, I'm not big into insincerity... and, there are definitely some bands out there that have a fashion title applied to them, I'm not directly -- let's just go ahead and say it. I am friends with Eighteen Visions; I think they're a great band, so I don't want anyone reading this to think that we're making, um, a thing towards them.
Splendid: And that's what most people would think...
Matt Fox: Yeah, and that's why I want to clarify we're not. As far as I'm concerned, fashion has obviously something to do with the way you present yourself, but it's also a mentality, and the main guy I know from Eighteen Visions is the drummer, and he doesn't have the mentality that disturbs me that I get from a lot of other people. Just to clarify.
Splendid: Now I know, especially when you play a large festival like this, doing all of the tours that you do, that eventually you're going to be going out with some of these bands, or a lot of these bands, that may not exactly embody the ideals that you guys do. Do you feel that sometimes, maybe, "we're saying we're not in these cool cliques, we're saying we have all this integrity," -- and yet you're playing with a lot of these guys who are in the cool cliques. Do you feel sometimes that you shouldn't be playing with these guys, or do you feel like you're out there showing a lot of these kids that may not have heard a real hardcore band, who haven't heard something from the heart, what it's all about? Is that your motivation, to do it for those guys?
Matt Fox: The latter, exactly.
Splendid: Cool.
Matt Fox: I never think that we shouldn't be playing. We've done tours where we probably shouldn't have been playing, like Andrew WK, who we did for a few weeks. Now, we love those guys, those are great guys, but you want to talk about a tour we had no business being on -- no kid in that crowd was interested in Shai Hulud. At all. That would be a tour that musically we didn't belong on, but if we're playing with one of the "cool" bands that we're not so friends with -- or that we are good friends with -- it doesn't matter, you know, because all we're gonna do is just go out there and do what we do, regardless. And, you know, I think the audience is usually a little more open than sometimes some of the bands are, so yeah, we're just us, we do what we gotta do.
Splendid: I've noticed that the reaction to the new album from basically everyone I've talked to has been great.
Matt Fox: It seems that everyone likes it. I've heard some bad stuff, but I've heard a lot of good stuff. I've heard a lot more good stuff than I have heard bad stuff, and I am shocked. Very pleased, but also shocked, so that's good. It makes us want to continue and do something else, 'cause I think every musician's worst nightmare is to hear somebody say, "yeah, I got the new album... are you playing any of the old stuff tonight?!" That happens all too often, and we still get that; every band's gonna get that, but it's nice to know that people like the new material, and that they want even newer material. So, we're happy that the album is being received well, and given that, we'll stick around, and we'll give 'em something else if they still care to hear.
Splendid: So you guys have already started working on the next album, right? I thought I read that somewhere...
Matt Fox: Yeah, roughly. We have some ideas, we have a working title, and we've got song titles, we've got some bits and pieces here and there. It's nowhere near ready, but we definitely hope to record it by next year. I've been telling everybody we want to record it by May, and every time I say that I kind of wince on the inside. Is that gonna happen? I don't know. We're definitely gonna record it next year, but at what time frame... we're saying May right now, but that's just being very hopeful. Who knows.
AUDIO: Let Us at Last Praise the Colonizers of Dreams
Splendid: Okay. Now with the new album, I noticed that you made a few shifts -- I guess got slightly more melodic, tried out some things like that seven minute last song, tried a few guitar and vocal effects; a couple of moments even reminded me of Snapcase in some of the breakdowns and stuff. Are there going to be any moves in other directions, or are you guys content with exploring the boundaries of where you are right now?
Matt Fox: Well, you know what? We never have any rhyme or reason as to what comes out. What comes out is just what comes out. Here's a funny little anecdote for you; it's not really funny, but it's true. A lot of That Within Blood Ill-Tempered was written on an electric guitar while sitting in my bed, not plugged in, and when you're not plugged in, at least when I'm not plugged in, you don't tend to write crunchier, heavier stuff, so a lot of the stuff came out a lot prettier, because that's just what feels right when you're playing an electric guitar not plugged in. Recently I got a practice amp, so now I play with it plugged in, and when I'm playing it, things are sounding a little heavier and a little angrier just because I think I have, you know, the means to hear it. So what came out on That Within Blood Ill-Tempered was just what was in us and the way we were writing the music. The next album looks like it's gonna be a little angrier, a little heavier -- maybe not too much, because we don't consider ourselves a "heavy band", we don't consider ourselves a moshcore band. We never break down for the sake of breaking down, but it just seems like what we're writing right now, where our minds are at, having a practice amp in my room -- some of the stuff is coming out a little crunchier than it has for the past year or so. But that's all speculative. Who knows? I have no idea. All I can tell you is that what we have currently for the material on the next record is definitely a little angrier that That Within Blood Ill-Tempered, and that's not to discredit the music on That Within Blood Ill-Tempered. That's my favorite stuff that I've ever been a part of. I'm very, very proud of that material.
Splendid: And you're quite the perfectionist, right?
Matt Fox: Yeah. Well, you know, I try to be, but I'm not the best perfectionist in the world because I'm a perfectionist who never manages to get everything to come out perfectly. It's like I'm a half-ass perfectionist, but I do want to things to be as perfect as possible. But you know what? It's not that I want things to be perfect as much as I want things to have the emotional value that they should have. Something's written lyrically or musically, and you feel it when you write it -- it has an emotional impact. I just want to make sure that when it's recorded that other people grasp the emotional impact that it's supposed to have. That's what I'm trying to do -- I'm trying to make sure the music is represented the way that it was written.
Splendid: Cool. Now with the lyrics, do you write them, is it a collaborative effort, does Geert do it?
Matt Fox: It's definitely a collaborative effort, but you know what? I hate to say it, but if you're asking, I've always been the predominant songwriter, musically and lyrically. I think everyone in the band knows that that's never going to change. I always have a lot of ideas good and bad -- plenty of bad, plenty of good -- and I work through them, then the guys read some stuff, and they say, "this is great", "this is terrible", "I like where you're going with this, can I take that and write that?" Also somebody else will say, "I have a song title," and usually that's great. So it's definitely collaborative, but I think that I write the majority just because I do -- not for any, you know, Nazi band reasons. I definitely have my hand in everything and I definitely want to make sure that it lives up to a standard that I set, but it's definitely collaborative. Geert wrote some fantastic lyrics on this album, Matt Fletcher wrote some fantastic lyrics, and hell, I wrote some fantastic lyrics on this album, so regardless of who does the majority, it is definitely a collaborative effort.
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Splendid: Now I know that a lot of your lyrics earn you the "angry band" tag. I mean, you have a song called "A Profound Hatred of Man" -- that sounds pretty angry. But I know at the same time there's a lot of hope, and there seems to be a struggle to not let that anger overcome you. Do you think sometimes that you get unfairly tagged as being too negative?
Matt Fox: Yeah, I think so. The band definitely has a negative connotation, but it's also a positive connotation -- you can really take from it what you want. I met a guy once a few years ago after the EP A Profound Hatred of Man came out, and he had said to me, "Hey man, I'm right there with you, I fuckin' hate everybody too. Fuck everybody, man, fuck them all." And I look at this guy, and I thought, "Who do you hate, because you're who I'm talking about." I thought, "There's someone lower than him?" This guy was horrible. He had no basis for his anger, no basis for his hatred; he was just one of those guys that grew up disliking everything, just not a pleasant fella. He took from the band what he wanted to take. He didn't take any positivity, he didn't know the struggle, the craving, the desire for things to be warm and fuzzy -- which is what we want. I want warm and fuzzy things, I love warm and fuzzy things. I love love, I love happiness, I love Muppets. I don't like bad or evil things; I hate them, and that's where the negativity comes in. You see all of the horrible things and it pisses you off, it makes you hateful, but it doesn't mean you're not a loving, caring person. Like I said, you can take from it what you want. I think that the people that really see our true message are the people that love the band the most, and they see the band for the positivity that it has.
Splendid: On the new album, with some of the songs like "Being Exemplary" and "Given Flight by Demon's Wings" -- those being the two that I notice the most -- it seems like you guys have a sense of, I don't know how to put it... traditional values in your music. Like with "Being Exemplary", you're talking about parents these days. Sorry parents raising up sorry kids to make more sorry parents and on and on. Did any of you guys have, you know, a good ol' wholesome, American upbringing, or was that something you sort of picked up along the way?
Matt Fox: I met my dad for the first time when I was eighteen. I barely know him; we don't talk anymore. My mom and I get along, but I was a metalhead growing up, and anything she said to me, my response was pretty much to the extent of, "fuck you, mom", so no, I did not have the traditional family upbringing. I think our bass player did, some of the guys may have, but the majority of us didn't. But regardless, with those lyrics... you know, you see things and they piss you off. See, I'm very picky. I have a lot of friends and a lot of enemies. A lot of my friends will tell you, "Matt's a good guy, he means well, he's definitely a little particular," and my enemies will tell you, "My God, I tried to throw an apple core out of his window, and he locked the window on me and told me never to litter, and geez, while I was eating the apple, he wouldn't stop telling me how loudly I chewed." So I'm pretty picky. When I go to a restaurant and I see a family with a child and I see both mother and daughter or mother and son or father and son chewing like a cow, I'm just like, you know, chew with your mouth closed! Man.
Splendid: Learn some manners!
Matt Fox: Teach your kid something! And I think, as menial as that may seem, people truly don't teach anybody anything, my mother included. I love my mother, my mother's a very good woman, but all of the stuff I have, everything I've had instilled maybe was, um, some semblance of an influence from her, but the truth is, everything I developed, I developed in time, by looking around and saying, "I don't like this", "that pisses me off", "that sucks", and then I kind of made my own decisions, and that's how most people are. Most children raise themselves, and that's what that song is. It's an observation. That's what that song discusses. It's not because we come from great families or we come from horrible families -- it's just an observation, something that's been irritating me for quite some while. So much so that I finally decided to put it out in some lyrics.
AUDIO: Willing Oneself to Forget What Otherwise Cannot Be Forgiven
Splendid: Yeah, I can relate with the restaurant thing because I'm a waiter at a Ruby Tuesday and I see parents with their ridiculous kids drawing all over our menus, taking the sugar packets and throwing them everywhere and stuff. Do you think that respect is just something that the common man doesn't have in him, or is this just a sign of our day?
Matt Fox: No, I just don't think that most people have the insight to have respect. I hate to say that, I know it's terrible, but that's how I feel. I know that's a horrible way to think, but it's true. I really think the average person doesn't have the sense to blow his nose properly, you know. And it's a damn shame. But thankfully, because of that, we've got the outlet for some lyrics, but yes, I don't think they have that kind of respect.
Splendid: So what was it for you? What was the transition where you looked around and said, "Hey, the world's crap; I'm going to try to put myself in a different direction"? What was your motivation with that?
Matt Fox: I don't know, and you know, I don't even know that I'm so successful, because I can list a thousand flaws with me too. I suck just as much as anyone else. The only difference between me and anyone else is that I'll admit that I suck. I'm like, "yeah, you know what I did ten minutes ago? That sucked." Whereas most other people can't, or are too proud to do so. So I don't think I'm better than anyone else, but as far as what age, when I started to learn things, I don't know. It was always periodically. A lot of bands had influences on me -- you know, lyrics that I read and things that I'd seen. I couldn't even answer that question. I just, uh, one day, I'd go outside, and I'd see somebody littering and say, "that sucks. I don't want -- that's not where that goes. How dare you. I have to walk there, so does everybody else!" And one day, everything just dawned on me.
As far as littering, here's a funny little story, though. I was about thirteen years old, big Slayer shirt on, real fuck off attitude, which is something that I hate now. I don't like fuck off attitudes, and I had one, for many, many years, and you know what? To an extent I probably still do, but I don't think a fuck off attitude is very conducive to being respectful or to lifting up a community of people. But anyway, I'm thirteen years old, with my Slayer shirt, I'm in a mall, my friend and I are eating chocolate fudge, we're both done, and he goes to throw it away in the trash can, and I say, "What are you doing, man? Fuck that. Leave it right here," and he's like, "Nah," and I'm just like "Fuck! Leave it! Fuck everybody!", you know. So we left it on the bench of the mall, we walk away, some old man grabs me by the back of the shirt, and demands that I walk back there. I clean up both of our stuff and throw it away. Never littered again. My point in telling you that is that I think everyone has the capacity to understand what the right thing to do and what the wrong thing to do is, but they're not taught it.
Back to the whole parents thing -- most people aren't taught. I tell my mother to chew with her mouth closed! My mother never taught me that! It's just the sound, it just irritates me, so when I was old enough to realize that, I'd be sitting at the dinner table with my mom, and I'd be like, "Mom, my God! Chew with your mouth closed." And it's supposed to be the other way.
Splendid: (laughing) And how did she react to that?
Matt Fox: She got pissed off. She hates me. And I understand. I'm very, very particular, sometimes too much, but overall, the point is that everyone has the capacity to be respectful, but it's not taught. And why?... I don't want it to come off like I think that I am decent...
Splendid: Yeah, definitely.
Matt Fox: Let's just put it this way: for the past five years, I've tried to be aware of the stupid things that I do, and if I make a mistake -- which I make plenty of, on a daily basis -- I just try to be conscious of it, and not make it again. I try to be as respectful as I can to others, and sometimes I fail miserably, but it's always, you know, when you die, you're always going to be a work in progress. And I just try to do the best I can.
Splendid: So do you have a hard time forgiving yourself sometimes, just because you're so hard on others? Or are you a strong believer in a grace of some sort? How does that work out?
Matt Fox: I feel bad, because I can be very harsh with people (in the background, a friend of Matt's says that she'd like to see how he answers this one), and here's a little example. The other day, Tony, our drummer, made a flub on a show, and I'm like, "You got that part?" And I didn't say it to him very nicely. I gave him what's known as the Matt Fox look, the music Nazi look. And I admit it, I gave it to him, and then he goes, "Yeah, how 'bout that solo you fucked up yesterday?" and I'm like, "Shit." I feel bad, you know, because like anyone, I'm not perfect. I definitely have the tendency to want to lash out and say, "You suck, what's wrong with you?" And maybe not enough times to point the finger at myself. But like I said, I do try, if I have a problem with something else, to be as kind as I can. Again, that's probably my biggest flaw. I would say I fail miserably on that very regularly, but, to answer your question directly, yeah, I feel bad, because you really shouldn't... it's a Metallica lyric, it's something in the Bible, you know -- what is it, "judge not, lest ye be judged yourself". As much as I'd like to think sometimes that I'm beyond judging, I'm not, nobody is. So yeah, I feel bad for being such a dick.
Splendid: Definitely. That's kind of funny that you mentioned the Bible, because I know that you guys were good friends with the guys in Strongarm, right?
Matt Fox: Yup.
Splendid: And those guys were Christians, correct?
Matt Fox: Yes.
Splendid: So did you ever pick up on any of that? What are your thoughts regarding all of that?
Matt Fox: On Christianity?
Splendid: Yeah, Christianity, and just spirituality in general.
Matt Fox: Well, I'm a pretty big supporter of spirituality. I know a lot of people hate religion and hate Christianity in particular. Myself, I don't. The majority -- and of course there are exceptions to every rule -- the majority of Christians that have been put in my life, that I have met, have always been some of the kindest, most compassionate, most understanding people, like the guys in Strongarm, like my ex-girlfriend Regina, lots of people that I still love very dearly, and because of the decent people that they are and their beliefs, it just didn't turn me off. Of course, you hear the horror stories, like, "I was raised in a church, and the priest slept with my little brother," and all these horrible things, and of course, you're raised like that, and that's your surrounding, and of course you're going to have an aversion to something. But the experience that I've had with Christians has always been very, very kind, and I just like somebody that has faith in something. It makes me happy, because you know what? I was born with a big black hole in me somewhere, and I've realized that food, money, music, girls -- nothing's gonna ever fill that hole, and I'm not saying that God will. I don't know what's gonna fill that hole, and all I know is that I have a big hole in me, and when I talk to somebody that has any type of spirituality, whether it's Buddhism, Christianity, or Catholicism, or Judaism, whatever it is, it seals up that hole a little bit. It may very well be a crutch, but whenever I talk to somebody that has faith, it gives me faith, and I don't want to be miserable. I like to have faith. So that's my take on spirituality; I'm all for it. It's something that I hope to even be more a part of soon.
Splendid: So when you see these people that you talk about, these religious people who are giving you hope or making you feel a little bit better about life and the world around you, does it make you feel like, "Man, they've got their stuff together, I've got this hole in me, what the hell's wrong with me?" Or is it just something where you say, "They've got their way, I've got mine?"
Matt Fox: I would say they've got their way, I've got mine, because, you know, there are plenty of Christians I know that I don't agree with, there's plenty of people who don't believe in God that I do, and vice versa. In a nutshell, it's just really nice to know that somebody says, "Yeah, I know there's proof that there's no God, but you know what? I still believe." There's something powerful in that, somebody that's got faith. I think faith is a strong thing, whether it's faith in yourself, faith in your relationship, faith in your car... you know, faith, it's just a strong thing and I like to have it, so I like to surround myself with people that have it, but I don't necessarily adopt their beliefs. I am not a Christian; I don't consider myself a Christian, I do not pray to Jesus Christ, but when I meet someone who does, the love and the conviction that they have in their beliefs gets me to pay attention, to say, "Yeah, good for you." It makes me happy that they've found some peace.
Splendid: You're kind of interesting for a hardcore guy: you're a proponent of spirituality, you talk about kids needing respect these days, parents not raising their kids right, and sometimes looking at your words, it almost makes you guys seem -- and I hate to use this word -- conservative. Is that something that any of you guys identify with, or is that something that I've just taken away by myself?
Matt Fox: I don't think Matt Fletcher or Geert would consider themselves conservative, although I think Tony, our drummer, and myself probably would, and I don't want to speak for Tony, but I would consider myself conservative. I would consider myself... jeez, I can't... let's put it this way, I'm not right wing by any means. Gay marriages? Legalize 'em in every state. Drugs? Legalize 'em. I'm not ultra strict conservative. But for myself, I like to be proper, I like to be respectful, even though I've got my foot on this person's table (referring to the little wooden table next to the couch we're on).
Splendid: Well, it's not the best table...
Matt Fox: Yeah. (laughs) Like I said, I would consider myself somewhat conservative, but not in a religious fashion. I have no problem with homosexuality. I have problems with things that right wing conservatives do, so I'm hesitant to use the term conservative. If you want, I'm liberally conservative, or conservatively liberal. I'm definitely a liberal guy; I'm open to anything. Hey, whatever makes you happy.
Splendid: Right.
Matt Fox: You know, I don't think you should have an abortion, but if that's what you think will improve your life, you do what you gotta do. But I do, for myself, I think that I follow more of a conservative path. Do you understand?
AUDIO: This Song: For the True And Passionate Lovers of Music
Splendid: Yeah. And I think a lot of what being a conservative is about is giving someone else the freedom. It's like, hey, I'm doing my thing, and you're -- you know, to take it to a Constitutional level, if you're being conservative in sticking to the Constitution, that's a lot of freedom. And you know, I think a lot people that are conservative now, I guess with the religious sector, are trying to take freedom away in the name of --
Matt Fox: I don't like people taking freedom away from anyone. My whole theory in life is legalize everything. I want everything legalized. I want homosexual marriages, everything. I want every drug legalized in every state, I want prostitution legalized. I don't give a crap what you do. You do what makes you happy, you do it in your own house, as long as it doesn't affect him or her -- who cares? As long as it doesn't bother me, I don't care what my next door neighbor's doing, as long as it doesn't leak into my house. And that's where I think my conservatism conflicts with other people's, 'cause I know a lot of conservative guys, some of the Christians I know, that say, "this is wrong, that's wrong, and it shouldn't be that way." And my attitude is, it's not right for you, but it's right for that guy, he's having a great time! So let him go do it, leave him alone. So that's why I'm always hesitant to use the word conservative... but my lifestyle is. You know, I don't do anything but watch movies; I live a conservative lifestyle, but my outlook on life, as far as other people and communication, is very liberal.
Splendid: Right. And I find that's becoming more of a common thing with a lot of conservatives, especially with the legalizing drugs thing. I know some of the most far right people that would be for legalizing everything.
Matt Fox: I say legalize it all. Crack, cocaine, heroine, I want it all legal. I have no problem with that. If you want to do it -- we would joke about it in the band all the time -- legalize it all, and if you choose to do it, keep it in your house. Don't let me catch you driving on the street stoned or drunk -- the punishments will be severe -- but if doing this makes you happy, enjoy it. Who am I to tell you not to?
Splendid: And if someone's motivated not to do it in the first place, whether it's legal or not, they'll stay away from it.
Matt Fox: Of course. And I would always promote education to stay away from that kind of stuff, because I do, and I think it's the best way to live. But if there's someone that's just like, "Man, I love it," well enjoy yourself. It doesn't bother me, just don't bring it to me, don't bring it to playgrounds, don't bring it to the schools, and don't let me catch you driving under the influence. But if that's what you want to do, on a Friday night, 11:00 a.m. in your house, when you're going to bed at 2:00, why should you not be able to enjoy yourself? Do what you want to do. It's not for me.
Splendid: With this band, or even in your personal life, in the community, have you ever felt a draw toward political activism of any sort, or do you see yourself as more of a person-to-person, bring about change by the way you live kind of guy, as opposed to talking to legislators or something?
Matt Fox: I don't know that I even bring about change. I would hope that I do, but I'm not sure that I do. I would consider our band to be somewhat socio-political. You know, you brought up the Constitution, and I couldn't tell you one Amendment. I don't know anything about politics. The President's cabinet is probably some place he keeps his shoes. I don't know anything about politics, and I'm not really concerned with that right now, so I'd say if anything, we're on more of a communication level, a social level of how people treat each other. And I hope that maybe we could make some sort of socio-political change, and that's something that we try to do. Whether we're successful or not, who knows, but none of us think that we're all so high and mighty that we're making so many changes. I think that we have a positive impact, but I wouldn't be so arrogant or so bold to say that we're that important. Does that make sense?
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Phillip Buchan spent the last sixteen months following the Grateful Dead. His book about the experience, Anything for a Shower: Sixteen Months on the Road Following the Dead, is due in February, 2004 from Faber and Faber.
[ graphics credits :: header/pulls - george zahora | photos - posed "castle" photos by cindy frey :: credits graphics ]
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